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pmolson

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi, I am trying to get the hang of rendering interiors and using v2. 
Below I have three images.

The third image is the model scene from sketchup.(no rendering) Please note the darkness of the furniture in the foreground.

The first image is a test render of the scene using the interior default preset. I did that render in hopes of getting a good idea of what my lighting and color and reflection and such look like prior to devoting a day and a half doing a final render. Actualy I did several test images at a small size using the interior vfast preset prior to doing this image.

So, after that image, I added a couple peices of art, and adjusted the point of view a bit, moved the omni grid down just a touch and let the interior High preset rip. The middle image is the Interior High Preset.

I love the clarity and evenness of light in the Int.High  image, but I am at a loss for why the color and tone of the furniture changed so dramatically. Maybe I am approaching the test procedure incorrectly. My understanding of the vfast and other shorter rendering time presets are that they are in large part created to do quick test renders. 
Do I need to test a scene using the exact same preset in a small size in order to be sure that colors and tones will come out somewhere close to the same. If that is the case it will drastically increase the "quick" test time. 

I love the feel of the interior high preset, so I hope there is a way I can know what to expect from it in relation to what I see in both sketchup and other quicker presets.

Experience and best guess may ultimately be the answer, but I am hoping someone can put me on to a better process than that.

Oh, also the render time stamp on the bottom of the Interior high preset image is incorrect. It should read 1 day, 36 minutes,42 seconds

Thanks.
paul


Attached Images
jpeg INTHIGH-for-posting.jpg (319.13 KB, 117 views)
jpeg INTDEF-4-for-posting.jpg (284.26 KB, 122 views)
jpeg SU_IMAGE_for_posting.jpg (338.40 KB, 89 views)


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bigstick

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Reply with quote  #2 
Different presets have different tonemapping settings applied. Tonemapping is a way of balancing hue, saturation and brightness. It isn't an intuitive concept, and it's something novices and intermediate users may struggle with.

Generally when you increase brightness, you reduce the colour saturation. The tonemapping settings in Podium try to balance these things. They work better on some scenes than others.

They are pretty much balanced for exteriors, but some people have reported images being a bit too pink. We can fix this.

Interiors are a lot more tricky and a little more control would be useful. However there are 2 or 4 parameters controlling tonemapping, and they work with sun brightness and exposure, and background exposure.

If we simply allowed full control over these things, people would get confused, and it would take ages to get the balance right from one image to another. So - what we are looking at is a series of preset 'looks' where you can choose a colder, brighter, lower contrast appearance, or a richer, warmer, more contrasty appearance. Of course there are alternatives, and degrees of variation in between.

If you are interested in having a little more control over this stuff, I can explain in more detail how to modify the presets.

[Edit: Jure (who many of you have seen posting here) is the Kray forum moderator and knows more about the engine than almost anyone and will be able to clarify these things in more detail. Although I know all about configuring presets, Jure's knowledge is far more detailed than mine.]

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Jure

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Reply with quote  #3 
Yes just like Jim said you get this effect because preset files include tonemaping parameters.
I talked with Jim already that the best way would be to separate tonemaping and sky parameters from quality presets. This way one would be able to use different combination of tonemapping and quality setting and easily switch between low and high quality render without getting different colors in the end.

Btw. you should try rendering without omni grid lights. More lights means slower render.

pmolson

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Reply with quote  #4 
Jim, Thank you for the very informative explanation. It helps. I am reluctant to allow myself to look under the hood of the preset. I'm afraid I will end up spending my time tinkering instead of rendering. Some day though....
I am fairly happy with the interior default preset and I think I will use that for the time being and keep looking at the new presets as they are created and released.

"Interiors are a lot more tricky and a little more control would be useful. However there are 2 or 4 parameters controlling tone mapping, and they work with sun brightness and exposure, and background exposure"

Does this mean I can use the intensity and exposure slider to affect interior scenes? Or will it just affect the light coming in the windows. Sorry, I should read up on these things instead of making you repeat yourself.
Again, thanks for your help.

Jure, I must be doing something wrong in that I cannot seem to get enough light in my scenes without the use of the omnigrid. I could cut hole in walls & ceilings to let in outside light, but this feels unatural to me. 
I will look at this scene again and experiment with not using the grid.
 I would love to shorten the rendering time. 

Thanks for the information.

Paul


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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #5 
Use the hdr format if not already! Its a 32 bit file and you can edit levels before converting it to 8bit. With a minimum loss of information. 
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #6 
The intensity and exposure sliders only affect sunlight. In V2, most scenes shouldn't need the omni grid. This is a fix that can make interiors look very unnatural. To start with you get shadows from your light fittings on the ceiling which is silly.

If your scene is too dark, try adjusting the strength of the light fittings and crank the exposure up to the maximum.

If this doesn't work, we can modify the presets and post one which will brighten up interiors. I have tested presets with some pretty dark interiors and they worked just fine.

If you feel you must use an omni grid, keep the light power very low.

Michalis makes a really important point about hdr. This is the best format to use for pp. I used to be an absolute purist about not using any photoshop at all, which is fine, but it does mean that resulting images will never be as good as they could be. Sid and michalis have been big advocates of this for a long time and it took me a while to change my view but I have and I'm convinced they are right.

We live in a world where a simple photograph is no longer a simple photograph. Almost all the professionals (visualisers as well as photographers) post-process their images to boost the saturation, intensity, contrast etc. Long before photoshop, there were sophisticated darkroom techniques to achieve similar things. Chances are that every professional photograph (and almost certainly every professional rendered image) you have seen has been digitally enhanced in some way or another.

I suspect that 5 minutes in Photoshop can do what 2 hours of tweaking and rendering can't.

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pmolson

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Reply with quote  #7 
Jim, I removed all omni grid lights as well as a couple floating omnies and turned up the light fittings a bit and the result is better than I expected. I think with I will be able to get the result I want with a little pp.
I am not a purest as far as pp goes, and use photoshop to finish all my renders, but it has been on a very basic level. Just adding landscape, sky, and adjusting brightness & contrast to the final images.
I want to do more and better post processing and after reading What Michaliszissiou had to say I created an hdr and found that I am unable to work with .hdr files with photoshop elements. A little google searching indicates that there are many editors out there that do allow hdr editing. Any recommendations on a decent editor to get my feet wet prior to pulling the trigger on the full version of Photoshop. I just can't justify the expense of The full version...yet.

I am fully on board with learning the intricacies of image editing and I very much appreciate the past and current willingness of this forums experts to help us achieve as much or as little as we desire.

p
 


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bigstick

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Reply with quote  #8 
You can use The Gimp on Windows or Mac, or for Windows there is also Picturenaut.

I haven't used Picturenaut but Gimp is brilliant. It is a bit like Photoshop CS3 in terms of features, and you can even get a customised interface to make it look like Photoshop

I have used it quite a lot and it is great - definitely better than a pirate version of Photoshop!

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pmolson

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Reply with quote  #9 
"Use the hdr format if not already! Its a 32 bit file and you can edit levels before converting it to 8bit. With a minimum loss of information."

Thanks for the advice michaliszissiou, I am looking into it.

BigStick, I downloaded "The Gimp" and have started the learning
process. Looks promising.

Unless I am doing something wrong, it does not appear that gimp allows
one to open an .hdr file. Am I wrong?

I did a little snooping and there are many forumn discussions about
faking it much in the same way one fakes hdr editing with photoshop
elements.

So, michaliszissiou & Bigstick or anybody, does gimp allow one to open
a .hdr file for editing, or do we have to fake it?

I found several very good youtube videos on editing hdr files, but i have to
be able to open one first.

I am guessing I may have to pry open my wallet for full photoshop pretty soon.

Thanks

p

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primolabo

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Reply with quote  #10 
guys, you got me totally confused. how I can light up a room with a small window without an omnigrid? do you mean adding a lot of lighting fixtures? I tend to use minimum of those - only if a lamp is a style statement - wall and floor lamps mainly.
pmolson

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Reply with quote  #11 
primolabo

The new presets have a certain amount of ambient light built in. But if you do not have any windows, or just a few you will have to add lights. The way I look at it is as if it is a real world room. Rooms need lights. Ceiling lights, wall lights, table lamps, etc.

Place some light fixtures where they would make sense in the real world and
then supplement those if you need more light with a couple thoughtfully placed omni or lem lights.

I am coming at this from a perspective of the whole room being my focus. If your trying to light an object and the room is secondary then you can certainly avoid light fixtures and just use lem and or omni lights.

Hope that helps and I did not just confuse you further.

Paul

 

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primolabo

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Reply with quote  #12 
thanks, pmolson.

the problem is, I really like my renders go fast. so I don't use sun light at all. I put LEM on the windows and by doing so, my renders for clients average about 10 minutes in 1600 X 900.

maybe I should try your way, but this lack of time...

I use deafault preset. I observed similar problem with wood textures - podium makes them much lighter.. too light in many cases. as you can see on the attached picture - the floor should be nice brown :-(



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jpeg kidf.jpg (259.20 KB, 70 views)

michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #13 
Just put some color on the books primolabo and go for the gallery! Amazing scene!
What you're doing with LEMs is clever. If only we could have invisible LEMs... a wish. 
primolabo

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Reply with quote  #14 
michalis, thank you! the gallery must wait till I am done with this room :-D 

the textures without editing are KILLING ME!

V2 is really great, so much better lighting, but this problem with textures makes me sleeping 4 hours per day since I switched to V2.

any ideas about protecting textures going too light in V2? like my floor? it's orange now, ruining my design :-(:-(:-(


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