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bigstick

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Reply with quote  #16 
I think you have your own set of assumptions here.

You need higher dpi because you look at images very closely. This is simply not true. You only need high dpi images to print at large sizes. The difference the dpi makes is not significant at smaller sizes. Can you give me an example of an image where the difference in dpi is so important to looking at the content. This notion seems absurd to me.

Your point about the processing time for Resize negating the additional render time is not likely to be remotely the case in reality. You can get a 1280x1024 image rendered in maybe 5 minutes. You increase this to say 5000 pixels, and you are talking about several hours of processing time.

The dpi issue is an example of received wisdom that doesn't stand up to scrutiny in practice. have you done a comparison? have you tried printing images at a lower dpi without telling anyone? Have they noticed? I've printed a render on a 3m wide site signboard, where the render resolution was about 4000x3000 pixels. I have no idea what the dpi was, but the quality at that size was easily acceptable. to get it at 3000 dpi would have required a render of something like 16000x12000 pixels, which is frankly ridiculous.

Is Professor Kenny still advocating the use of an omni grid to boost lighting? He was wrong about that as well [smile]

Your point about guesswork is unwarranted. By that definition, biased rendering is also guesswork.

The issue with very high resolution rendering - is that it's very slow. For design students, the question I think they should ask themselves, is how they would rather spend the extra hours of their time - designing or rendering? 

There has always been a tendency in the visual creative disciplines to prioritise style over substance. I would rather see a more carefully considered design of a lower visual quality, than some immaculate images with less carefully-considered content.

However - if you want to keep using 300 dpi, that's your choice entirely. If you're convinced that it's really necessary, that's fine [smile]

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Timaphillips

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Reply with quote  #17 
So. Many. Burns. lol.

I'm also a little taken back by the necessity for this DPI and intense scrutiny. 300 dpi vs some crappy pixelated image from clipart, sure that makes perfect sense for image quality control when it comes to print standards. 

I understand some very large and DEEP pocketed firms might have some major clients in need of high quality presentation materials, but the majority of design 3D work for the average client needs to be efficient in time and cost. None of which seems to be happening in your situation. Time rendering is time that could be spent working, unless a render farm is being utilized. At that level I can't see them using SketchUp as their main 3D tool.
arwat23

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstick
I think you have your own set of assumptions here.

You need higher dpi because you look at images very closely. This is simply not true. You only need high dpi images to print at large sizes. The difference the dpi makes is not significant at smaller sizes. Can you give me an example of an image where the difference in dpi is so important to looking at the content. This notion seems absurd to me.

Your point about the processing time for Resize negating the additional render time is not likely to be remotely the case in reality. You can get a 1280x1024 image rendered in maybe 5 minutes. You increase this to say 5000 pixels, and you are talking about several hours of processing time.

The dpi issue is an example of received wisdom that doesn't stand up to scrutiny in practice. have you done a comparison? have you tried printing images at a lower dpi without telling anyone? Have they noticed? I've printed a render on a 3m wide site signboard, where the render resolution was about 4000x3000 pixels. I have no idea what the dpi was, but the quality at that size was easily acceptable. to get it at 3000 dpi would have required a render of something like 16000x12000 pixels, which is frankly ridiculous.

Is Professor Kenny still advocating the use of an omni grid to boost lighting? He was wrong about that as well [smile]

Your point about guesswork is unwarranted. By that definition, biased rendering is also guesswork.

The issue with very high resolution rendering - is that it's very slow. For design students, the question I think they should ask themselves, is how they would rather spend the extra hours of their time - designing or rendering? 

There has always been a tendency in the visual creative disciplines to prioritise style over substance. I would rather see a more carefully considered design of a lower visual quality, than some immaculate images with less carefully-considered content.

However - if you want to keep using 300 dpi, that's your choice entirely. If you're convinced that it's really necessary, that's fine [smile]


Ok. I may have misspoke. I'm going to go in order of what you said:

While I haven't used On1Resize yet, there was two videos I watched on the subject where the reviewers resized an image from 1080p to 4K and the resize took about 1 hour. After looking at a few other videos, I see that this is most likely not the case and that they probably had ether an old version of the software or had a weak system.

Dpi does matter for image quality. I'm a photographer and literally every single photographer I have ever talked to says that, only for physical prints, dpi matters. I understand that dpi means nothing for on screen viewing, but for prints 250-300dpi is considered by most in the photography field as "great image quality".

I have done comparisons (with my photographs, not yet a Sketchup test however) and dpi does matter, at least when up close to the image. It's not a matter of the client noticing (which a few people did when I showed them the photos). It's a matter of showing the work off in the best way possible, regardless of wether or not a client will notice.

3000 dpi is way to high. No one prints at that and that render time would be crazy!

On the topic of Omni grids, if my professor teaches us something that has allowed us to continue to be one of the best interior design programs in the state (and up there in the country) and constantly win compititions, I'll keep listening to him about lighting, which is hard enough as is. Yes, there are other ways I know to fix the lighting without the Omni grid, but the omni grid is, at least to him and many of the students he teaches, a very important tool. Sure, it makes render times go through the roof, but it's quicker than many other ways to get the lighting right on the first of second time, depending on the scene. I know most of the guys at Podium don't like the Omni grid, but most of us interior design people love it.

Rendering is guesswork, but it's guesswork with the original model there and it can "zoom in" (don't know the technical term for it) to the original model as close as it wants to to get a accurate image. A resize program does not have the original polygons of the model. It only has pixels, which is far less accurate to the original model than polygons. Like I said, I have yet to use the program, but I am going to test it today for myself.

Man, I could not agree with you more. I also believe that the design should take priority to quality of the image. But that's not the point of this classes I take or what I do for the firm. Since we only use sketchup for presentation purposes, we have to make the images look great. That includes the design and the quality of the print. We have to focus on both. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to render smaller and save a few hours, but I can't. We must not only have our designs be as perfect as we can make them, but also must have fantastic image quality. That's kind of the whole point of a presentation.

But this isn't why I posted the question. I posted this question to figure out if Ryzen works well, or at least has the potential to work well, with Podium and if Podium supports AMD CPUs and uses all of their power, like how it does with Intel?
arwat23

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timaphillips
So. Many. Burns. lol.

I'm also a little taken back by the necessity for this DPI and intense scrutiny. 300 dpi vs some crappy pixelated image from clipart, sure that makes perfect sense for image quality control when it comes to print standards. 

I understand some very large and DEEP pocketed firms might have some major clients in need of high quality presentation materials, but the majority of design 3D work for the average client needs to be efficient in time and cost. None of which seems to be happening in your situation. Time rendering is time that could be spent working, unless a render farm is being utilized. At that level I can't see them using SketchUp as their main 3D tool.


Ya... that's the thing. The firm I work for isn't large but they have some very expensive clients. Sketchup isn't the only program that they use, but I'm the only person who even remotely knows sketchup at my firm, at least out of the designers. The main designers hand draw, which is fine, but the contractors don't like their hand drawings all that much and a lot of info can sometimes be missing from them. I'm just doing what the head archietect tells me to do; 250 dpi renders of the designer's hand drawings. And I only render for presentation. Other than that, I use other techniques to get good images to the site, so I only use Podium rendering near the beginning of a project (cuz I don't have time for any more than that). And they have a render workstation, so it's not all that bad. I think the render times are an issue for me because so many of out clients want water in their home (fountain, etc.) and I'm told to render that out.
Timaphillips

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
It's a matter of showing the work off in the best way possible, regardless of wether or not a client will notice. 


Sounds like a waste of time and money to my clients wallets to be blunt. As much as I want my presentations to be perfect, the reality of the design business is getting the job done under a dealine that's always too short and with a budget that's too small. You will always be working with some sort of compromise. 

I'm not trying to take away from your work by any means. Hope you don't take that the wrong way. I've just met way too many architects in my career that are too centric on their building (i.e.- their design) and that takes away from the team's goals in multiple ways. Which is why some of us argue DPI is not the be all end all it's made out to be. Lord knows what crappy calibrated monitor they are viewing our digital images on where white is yellow and ruins all the hours of obsession. 

Back to topic. Buy Ryzen for a render machine! 16 cores sounds sooooo awesome for rendering times! 1/2 the price of the i7 counterpart and blows it away in multi-tasking. 

Cheers.


 
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #21 
Try producing renders that aren't 250 dpi, and see if anyone notices [wink]

If they don't - it's point proved.

This is one of those things that is supposed to be 'received wisdom'. I had to stop my interns rendering at too high a resolution because it meant they spent too long in front of their machines just watching the render develop.

This is time that they could have spent refining the model, or refining the design.

I also have to agree with Tim about architects. As a practising chartered architect with over 20 years experience, I think I'm qualified to say that architects can be complete dicks about some things [smile]


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Timaphillips

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
As a practising chartered architect with over 20 years experience, I think I'm qualified to say that architects can be complete dicks about some things [smile]



Hey you said it, not me! [wink]
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #23 
I'm in an usual position where I act as both an architect, and a 'design management consultant' for projects by other architects. I also used to work for a Japanese international construction company.

I totally understand why some people find architects frustrating.

Unfortunately, I'm not immune from the same criticisms [tongue]


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pmolson

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstick
I'm in an usual position where I act as both an architect, and a 'design management consultant' for projects by other architects. I also used to work for a Japanese international construction company.

I totally understand why some people find architects frustrating.

Unfortunately, I'm not immune from the same criticisms [tongue]



Bigstick...That comment, sums up why your opinions carry weight.
I love it!



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pmo
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #25 
[wink]


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arwat23

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Reply with quote  #26 
Ok. Well, just got my new Ryzen CPU and here's the result from my tests. I'm not going to reply to the other comments now because it's getting us nowhere in the actual TOPIC of this form post. I never asked how to get better render times with the system I have or what to make my resolution. While I want to say thank you for the info you all have given me, and a really do appreciate your inputs and advice, some of which I will actually use, that isn't why I posted this question. 


Anyways, if anyone is thinking about getting a Ryzen CPU, here's what I came up with. I may do another post to make it easier for people to find later today.

I built a complex model with a ton of reflective surfaces and LEMs. The stats are below. And yes, I know some of the stats are a little weird. That was the point: 

Materials Details:
Light-emitting materials(LEM)
   "Material2" used in 475 faces
   "PDM_LEM_white_power_10" used in 243 faces
   "PDM_LEM_4000K" used in 6 faces
   "PDM Screen picture Apple_27_Display1" used in 15 faces
   "PDM_Printer_green_light" used in 3 faces
   "PDM_Printer_red_light" used in 1 face

Reflective Materials:
   "PDM_Aluminium_polished_01" used in 101991 faces
   "PDM_Glass_thin_02" used in 25 faces
   "PDM_Wood_09" used in 76 faces
   "PDM_Glass_thin_01" used in 449 faces
   "PDM_Aluminium_R70" used in 8495 faces
   "Glass_White" used in 45 faces
   "PDM_Floor_TopFloor" used in 4 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Tile_Galaxy_Black" used in 8 faces
   "PDM_Parquet_05" used in 104 faces
   "PDM_Window_pane" used in 7 faces
   "PDM Dark Pot_series" used in 8 faces
   "PDM Corten Pot_series" used in 8 faces
   "PDM_Cappellini_Simplon_cabinet_shelf_s1-b" used in 310 faces
   "PDM_Cappellini_Simplon_cabinet_leg_s1-b" used in 330 faces
   "PDM Abstracta White plastic Azarro" used in 752 faces
   "PDM Abstracta Glass Azarro" used in 4 faces
   "PDM Abstracta Black plastic Azarro" used in 152 faces
   "PDM_Plant_03_White_plastic" used in 762 faces
   "PDM Vegetal Ornamental_grass1" used in 20736 faces
   "PDM Leather Eames_Aluminium" used in 32400 faces
   "PDM Black plastic Eames_Aluminium" used in 23464 faces
   "PDM Chrome1" used in 87800 faces
   "PDM_Timber_01" used in 592 faces
   "PDM_glass_translucent_01" used in 4 faces
   "PDM Leather Eames" used in 7228 faces
   "PDM Black Plastic Eames" used in 2540 faces
   "PDM Gray metal VP_Coffee_Table_20" used in 59 faces
   "PDM Dark gray plastic Sideboard_05" used in 75 faces
   "PDM Light gray Sideboard_05" used in 39 faces
   "PDM Chrome2" used in 42 faces
   "PDM White plastic Reading_seating_set" used in 183 faces
   "PDM_Chrome" used in 8178 faces
   "PDM_Vitra_material_06" used in 7632 faces
   "PDM_Vitra_material_01" used in 7852 faces
   "PDM Leather BandB_AC_Lounge_2" used in 12710 faces
   "PDM Stainless steel" used in 72 faces
   "Alluminuim noir" used in 1223 faces
   "Stainless 2" used in 24 faces
   "PDM Glass Calligaris_coffe_table" used in 48 faces
   "PDM Acryl_White Calligaris_coffe_table" used in 4227 faces
   "PDM Black plastic Celle" used in 17001 faces
   "PDM Mesh Celle" used in 1281 faces
   "PDM Chrome Celle" used in 5157 faces
   "PDM Grey Celle" used in 3432 faces
   "PDM leather Mies Barcelona Chair Ottoman" used in 25380 faces
   "leather4" used in 3222 faces
   "plastic_orange" used in 7320 faces
   "[0135_DarkGray]" used in 2280 faces
   "PDM_Aluminium" used in 2238 faces
   "PDM Vitra White plastic Group_table" used in 202 faces
   "PDM Vitra Black plastic Group_table" used in 324 faces
   "PDM COR Metal" used in 2132 faces
   "PDM COR Reflective white plastic" used in 22 faces
   "PDM chrome" used in 3064 faces
   "PDM_Leather_02" used in 44305 faces
   "PDM_Tournesol_Boulevard_planter_BV-602424_Material_05" used in 23760 faces
   "PDM_Tournesol_Boulevard_planter_BV-602424_Material_04" used in 180375 faces
   "PDM_Mies_Barcelona_Coffee_and_Lamp_Table_glass_edge" used in 32 faces
   "PDM_Mies_Barcelona_Coffee_and_Lamp_Table_Glass" used in 10 faces
   "PDM_Mies_Barcelona_Coffee_and_Lamp_Table_Steel" used in 330 faces
   "PDM_Wood_floor_walnut_01" used in 7 faces
   "PDM_Pens_01_material_02" used in 184 faces
   "PDM_Pens_01_material_03" used in 66 faces
   "PDM_Pens_01_material_04" used in 66 faces
   "PDM_Japanese Elm" used in 55 faces
   "PDM_Steel_brushed" used in 28 faces
   "<DimGray>1" used in 38475 faces
   "PDM_Tile_23" used in 7 faces
   "PDM_Florida_Tile_Cliffside_Blue_Oasis_1 2x24" used in 127 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Thunder_Black" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Metal_03" used in 6 faces
   "Material1" used in 26 faces
   "PDM Brown VP_Books_03" used in 138 faces
   "PDM Cover VP_Books_03" used in 92 faces
   "PDM Black Book_Zaha_Hadid" used in 1360 faces
   "PDM Picture Book_Zaha_Hadid" used in 221 faces
   "PDM White Book_Steve_Jobs_biography" used in 952 faces
   "PDM SteveJobs Book_Steve_Jobs_biography" used in 308 faces
   "PDM Side Book_Steve_Jobs_biography" used in 28 faces
   "PDM_Stainless" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Oak_02" used in 197 faces
   "PDM_Metal_bare_01" used in 2 faces
   "PDM Leather Coconut_chair" used in 394 faces
   "PDM_Water_01" used in 63 faces
   "glass_thin_01" used in 8 faces
   "PDM White Water_lily" used in 13408 faces
   "PDM Leaf Fern" used in 1980 faces
   "PDM_Water_01_LessReflective" used in 3487 faces
   "H2O 4 Cascades" used in 1744 faces
   "H2O 4 Cascades1" used in 1744 faces
   "PDM_Simple_Tin_Planter_With_Replica_Succulents_In_Bed_Of_Stone_Material_01" used in 1 face
   "PDM_Simple_Tin_Planter_With_Replica_Succulents_In_Bed_Of_Stone_Material_02" used in 19074 faces
   "PDM_Tile_23_Dark" used in 7 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Via_Lattea" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Tile_Artic_Blue" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Tile_Diamond_Fall" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Tile_Emerald_Pearl_02" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Tile_Latinum" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Tile_Topaz_Imperial" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Tile_Juparana_Perla" used in 9 faces
   "PDM_Granite_Galaxy_Black" used in 6 faces
   "PDM_Parquet_15" used in 6 faces
   "PDM Grey alu Apple_27_Display1" used in 16695 faces
   "PDM Black button Apple_27_Display" used in 2550 faces
   "PDM_Apple_Display_Glass" used in 30 faces
   "PDM Logo Apple_27_Display" used in 15 faces
   "PDM Aluminium Apple_Keyboard" used in 2670 faces
   "PDM Aluminium Apple_Magic_Mouse" used in 2700 faces
   "PDM White Apple_Magic_Mouse" used in 4995 faces
   "PDM Logo Apple_Magic_Mouse" used in 105 faces
   "PDM Picture Book_04" used in 9 faces
   "SPD_Leather" used in 1162 faces
   "Pdm_Lf_Santacole_Darkgrey_Aluminium" used in 480 faces
   "Pdm_Lf_Santacole_white_plastic" used in 438 faces
   "PDM_Dark_Oak" used in 792 faces
   "PDM Leather Eames_Aluminium1" used in 23760 faces
   "PDM_Vase_Flowers_04_Glass_02" used in 204 faces
   "PDM_Kentia_Palms_In_Tall_Silver_Planters_Material_01" used in 386 faces
   "PDM_Projector_02_Black" used in 4391 faces
   "PDM_Projector_02_lightGrey" used in 1426 faces
   "Pdm_Lf_Artemide_Black_Aluminium" used in 323 faces
   "Pdm_Lf_Artemide_Glass" used in 1280 faces
   "SPD_painted_aluminium" used in 202 faces
   "chrome10" used in 204 faces
   "PDM_Halla_Lina_Recessed_Corner_Material_02" used in 270 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_10" used in 282 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_11" used in 43 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_01" used in 3841 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_08" used in 1090 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_03" used in 110 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_07" used in 76 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_04" used in 2 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_02" used in 8 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_06" used in 11 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_09" used in 17 faces
   "PDM_Microsoft_Surface_Studio_Material_05" used in 10 faces
   "PDM_Printer_grey_dark" used in 1084 faces
   "PDM_Printer_grey_bright" used in 537 faces
   "PDM Violet VP_Notebook_01" used in 30 faces
   "PDM Violet02 VP_Notebook_01" used in 2 faces
   "PDM Blue VP_Notebook_01" used in 2 faces
   "PDM Yellow VP_Notebook_01" used in 2 faces
   "PDM Red VP_Notebook_01" used in 2 faces

Materials with refraction:
   "PDM_Aluminium_polished_01" used in 101991 faces
   "PDM_Glass_thin_02" used in 25 faces
   "PDM_Aluminium_R70" used in 8495 faces
   "PDM_glass_translucent_01" used in 4 faces
   "PDM Glass Calligaris_coffe_table" used in 48 faces
   "PDM_Aluminium" used in 2238 faces
   "PDM_Water_01" used in 63 faces
   "PDM_Water_01_LessReflective" used in 3487 faces
   "H2O 4 Cascades" used in 1744 faces
   "H2O 4 Cascades1" used in 1744 faces
   "PDM Grey alu Apple_27_Display1" used in 16695 faces
   "PDM Aluminium Apple_Keyboard" used in 2670 faces
   "PDM Aluminium Apple_Magic_Mouse" used in 2700 faces
   "PDM White Apple_Magic_Mouse" used in 4995 faces
   "PDM Logo Apple_Magic_Mouse" used in 105 faces
   "White_Fabric_fine_translucent" used in 161 faces
   "PDM_Halla_Lina_Recessed_Corner_Material_02" used in 270 faces

Alerts Details:
This material will not render:
  Wrong format texture:
    "1.tif"

Click here for to read about Analyse Tools.

GENERAL MODEL INFO
==================================

Operating System: Windows 8.1 or Windows Server 2012 R2
Sketchup Version: 16.1.1449
SU Podium Version: 5.519
There are 1462575 faces, 353 materials, 26 pages, 67 layers, 244 groups and 355 component instances in the model.


*Here's my builds:

My old computer had a i7 4790k overclocked to 4.8Ghz with 16GB of DDR3 @ 2133Mhz.
My new computer build has a Ryzen 7 1700X @ 3.4Ghz (will overclock later to match the 1800X) with 16GB of DDR4 @2133Mhz. 
Both builds have a Gigabyte Windforce Nvidia GTX 1070 with 8GB of GDDR5 RAM, with everything overclocked by 100Mhz.

(Render 1) I started with a long render with a high resolution (4500x2690, near a typical 10x16 print with 300dpi), preset to "interior_fine_AA" with shadows on.
(Render 2) Then I did 1000x597 render with the same preset and shadows.
(Render 3)Then a "Interior_preview" render at 1000x597.

Below are the times I got. I'm sorry for not making a graph, so I'll try to make it as clear as I can.

(Render 1): 
i7 time: 12:07:56.2
Ryzen time: 08:34:08.3
Difference: Approx. 70.7% faster on Ryzen

(Render 2)
i7 time: 58:33.7
Ryzen time: 40:32.3
Difference: Approx. 70% faster on Ryzen

(Render 3)
i7 time: 8:35.8 - 7:47.6 (Note: I messed up my notes, so the two times are a rough estimate)
Ryzen time: 05:34.2
Difference: Rough approx. 70%


Long story short, a non-overclocked Ryzen CPU costing virtually the same as a new i7 7700k (about $400) (which is rated at 26% better than my i7 4790k, according to Intel) can outperform most i7 and xions that are under $1000. 

Ryzen gets you a 60-70% increase for the same or less than an i7 in Podium Renders.
Timaphillips

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Reply with quote  #27 
Exactly what I was expecting. Thank you for taking the time to details the findings.

Also, Windows 8.1???
arwat23

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Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timaphillips
Exactly what I was expecting. Thank you for taking the time to details the findings. Also, Windows 8.1???


It's windows 10. I have no idea why it says 8.1
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