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bigstick

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Reply with quote  #46 
Guys, I don't think it is sensible to post images from a work in progress renderer where not everything is working 100% yet. All you will say is, "Looks promising, but it obviously isn't there yet". We have as much chance of people being negative as they are of being positive, which obviously isn't going to be helpful.

You will also ask about the UI, and features, and what may or may not be planned, and we won't be able to answer these questions either. The best thing to do is wait for the beta. Some of you will be pleased (most - I think) but some won't.  

For those of you who are mostly satisfied with Podium as it is but want it to be better, I'm sure you'll all be happy. 

Expectations will be the biggest problem IMO. If you are mainly used to using 3ds Max, you will have a 3ds Max way of thinking, based on its way of doing things. If you are used to VRay, you will be used to that way of doing things, and will want certain types of features.

Ultimately I think applications should be assessed on the quality of the results, how much time it takes to achieve them, and the cost.

For all the power, flexibility and fancy features in some of the high end render engines, I have seen lots of crappy renders that are no better than Podium can produce. The more parameters you have, the more potential there is to configure them poorly.

So, very sorry but no teaser right now, and no we can't give you a date for the beta.

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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #47 
OK I understand. But you could post two or three render tests. I dont want to hear that there isn't any. When people ask me, why using this crappy app (podium), my answer is "I find a lot of light in this simple app". When I'm asking about bumps and normal maps (things here are very bad), I get no answer. So don't let me guess, please. Do you like bumps as they are now?
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #48 
Bumps are one of the few things that don't work at all right now and normal maps are not supported by the engine AFAIK This is a normal development bug though and nothing to be concerned about.

Every render engine has its own unique 'look'. I really like the output of the new engine and think it is way better than the current one.  But this is just my opinon and I'm not 100% happy right now. I don't think you will be either. So - we can only lose by posting development renders right now. The time to do this is in the betatest stage, when mostly everything mostly works.

If people want to sneer about Podium being a 'crappy' app, that's up to them. Put Michael Schumacher in a Renault and he'll most likely be faster on a twisty road than an idiot in a Ferrari.

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olishea

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Reply with quote  #49 
Yeah man i hate it when people say "why are you using a crappy app". Obviously they've never used it.

Well if you need a beta tester biggie, im up for it.

I hope shadows will be better. They're kinda disappointing sometimes.


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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #50 
This renault needs some service. 
solo75080

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Reply with quote  #51 
I've always defended Podium and even challenged a few folks to a render-off in the past as I believe my ability is 50% of the challenge and Podium the other 50%. The problem IMO is not that Podium is bad but rather the competition has got better relegating Podium to be seen as a noob-to-render app. Sure in the right hands it can be a very powerful product, look at what the masters here have achieved as example. Every render app has an Achilles heal and a few bugs, that's understandable and there is no one app that can do everything but all I'm hoping is that Podium 2 will have something for the advanced users and not be limited to what can be made simple. I wish there could be a simple preset version and an advanced pro user option even if they are together and the advanced settings and featured be available if and when needed.
Now regarding features, stuff like refraction, caustics, displacement, bump controls, hdri, camera controls, etc are now industry standards and I cannot believe that y'all would even consider releasing a product without these essential features... at least I hope not.

Even though my current use of Podium is more pre-vis I do hope that in future it will once again be my number one go to app.

Good luck guys, you know I'm always rooting for y'all.

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Shakyshack

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Reply with quote  #52 

Amen brother!


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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #53 
One critic, one king, five or six masters here... are we getting ready for a war or something? 
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #54 
No war Some of our long time users want more information than we can give. We don't want to ignore them, because we really value our users, particularly those who have stuck with us since the early days. The issue is to give enough information to maybe address worries, and avoid the annoying issue of excessive hype.

If I'm quite honest I'm worried about expectations getting out of control for V2. Sure I think it's cool and better, but I worry that advanced users will think, "So what?"

The best way to think of V2.0 is an evolution of V1.7 with a better core, with more potential and a slight enhancement on core features. Yes we can and will build the feature list, and catering to advanced users has been something that has been discussed at length. The initial release will not contain most of the render toys that some of you want, yet render quality will be really nice. There is so much cool stuff we can (and want to) add, but it is time, money, sustainable product development and so on.

We will add stuff, but only when the core is nice and stable and easy to learn and use. I think there is a distinction between easy to learn (and intuitive, which is easy to to pick up, but without help) and easy to use. Of course we hope the new version will be all these things.

We could implement lots of fancy stuff early on, but this would delay release further, increase costs (and by extension, price) and introduce more potential bugs.

I think we have a good handle on what the majority of people think is most important, and right now that is the main focus. If I'm honest, I definitely think some people will be disappointed. Not necessarily with output quality, but lack of features/configurability. 

This distinction is important IMO because the important thing ought to be quality of results, not what you do to get them. Displacement is a good example of this. No it won't be in V2.0 - sorry. It may not ever be included. I can demonstrate why - but not right now.  I think that some people (and I really don't mean to insinuate anything here) have a checkbox mentality with some of this stuff. Specular reflections - check, displacement mapping - check, procedural materials - check, normal maps - check etc.

I think these preconceptions are based on experience with other render engines.. Last week I spent a while going through some Vray tutorials on YouTube. By number 3 (of 8!) I was thinking, "Podium should be able to get these results with a single click". If people want to adjust maximum and minimum rays per material they are looking at the wrong product. In the right hands, Vray will undoubtedly be able to produce better results than Podium V2 and faster, but they will have to work hard to get comparatively small improvements.

V2 will be more configurable than the current version, but (initially at least) it won't have a lot of the advanced stuff that some people will be expecting.

As the saying goes, "You can't please all of the people all of the time", and I think this is fair. 

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nomeradona

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Reply with quote  #55 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstick
No war
they will have to work hard to get comparatively small improvements.
 
agree with this. funny that there are some parameters that a difference of .5 could affect tremendously the render.. on the other hand you put a multiplier of thousand, you could hardly see the difference... no wonder indeed some of this are frustrating...

may i know perhaps the possible beta release of V2.. not exact but just assumptions..



  

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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #56 
One last wish. OK this is to much. 
A python based podium for blender... 
Because I realize now that most of the problems come from SU topology. BTW Light leaks too. There's an issue here, we should talk about it.
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #57 
Hmm - why another render engine for Blender? It has so many good free ones already. I don't know how fast they are, but quality can be fantastic. Have you seen Luxrender?

The main problem (Podium for other modellers isn't a problem in principle) is that Blender and most of its render engines are free. Podium isn't, and won't be. I haven't heard of ant commercial plugins for Blender but I suppose there must be some. The whole idea of a commercial plugin kind of goes against the principle of Blender.

I think the principle is simple enough. It's certainly achievable, but it won't be fast. The potential market would have to be large enough to justify the cost and I'm not sure it is commercially feasible.

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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #58 
Hey jim. Vray for blender. Why podium for blender? Because I like the forum here.  IMO this forum here is the real power of podium. Anyway lets have some fun.
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #59 
Yes, but Vray for Blender isn't available yet and appears to be an open source project to connect Blender to the Vray engine

It would be interesting to see how it develops though.

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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #60 
"The whole idea of a commercial plugin kind of goes against the principle of Blender."

What are these principles of blender? Most people in blenderartists.org work using zbrush (500 euros) + blender + photoshop. These blender guys don't ask for money (donations are just enough for them), that doesn't mean that they don't develop a full functional and professional 3d app. I use blender for months and it never, never crushed. A 3d app that never crushes! My opinion? Blender 2.5 will be the end of SU. Watch some preview videos carefully and you'll probably start thinking like me.
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