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solo75080

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Reply with quote  #61 
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Blender 2.5 will be the end of SU.


That will never happen, it's all about the GUI mate.

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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #62 
What do you prefer? Blender 2.5 has a nice new GUI too.
Lets say we have a rectangle and lets draw a circle on it. Push pull etc... Listen now, what topology have we just created? A mesh of N triangles, N=subdivisions of circle. Export this geometry in another app and be in great trouble. This is SU GUI. Friendly at start, but...
My theory is that this geometry produces these podium leaks too. Using blender for modeling never show them again. Podium renders much faster this clean topology actually. Try to render my recent posted models and be surprised like me.
solo75080

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Reply with quote  #63 
The thing is SU is geared towards the architectural industry, the tools, geometrical modeling, the orbiting, arch based plug ins and CAD integration make it a very simple and user friendly app for architectural type modeling, Blender on the other hand is by far more powerful with many more tools including organic modeling tools, UV tools, that's more geared towards 3D artistry.
So depending on what you need the app for would dictate your choices.

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bigstick

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Reply with quote  #64 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Podium does not have "light leaks". The render artifacts that people refer to as "leaks" are not caused by geometry with gaps allowing light to leak. They are blotches caused by sampling problems.

You can render a scene with the supposed "leaks" change the viewpoint and end up with different blotches in different locations. You can even render the same scene immediately afterwards and have blotches in different locations. If they were caused by geometry not meeting, the blotches would remain in the same place. Also - if you rendered the scene in other engines, you would most likely get problems in the same place. None of these things is true.

This is the reason I hate the term. It makes people look for incorrect problems and incorrect solutions in the wrong places and in so doing - wastes their time

As for Blender, very powerful application, but that UI is so complicated! Comparing SketchUp to Blender is like comparing a car and a helicopter. Sure they are both methods of transport, but in terms of how they work and how you operate them they are completely different. 

Solo is right, SU is geared towards people who don't want to spends months learning how to create and render a basic scene. Also, let's face it, how many buildings in real life use organic shapes? Not very many because constructing them is extremely expensive. Blender is far too complicated to appeal to the mass market.

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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #65 
"I've said it before and I'll say it again. Podium does not have "light leaks". The render artifacts that people refer to as "leaks" are not caused by geometry with gaps allowing light to leak. They are blotches caused by sampling problems.

You can render a scene with the supposed "leaks" change the viewpoint and end up with different blotches in different locations. You can even render the same scene immediately afterwards and have blotches in different locations. If they were caused by geometry not meeting, the blotches would remain in the same place. Also - if you rendered the scene in other engines, you would most likely get problems in the same place. None of these things is true."

Most biased renderers have leaks (random style guess). Most of these "leaks" are near bad topology, mostly near SU arches. Noisy preset doesn't try to guess so no leaks there. In SCF lot of twilight renders have leaks too. Models imported from blender never cause "leaks". All these are facts. 
What I'm trying to say is that SU creates bad topology and this is the secret behind this friendly GUI. We'll never see a decent VU-mapper plug-in in SU, for example.
There comes a day that Jim and me will communicate somehow. (OK that was a joke) 
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #66 
Michalis, I'm not sure I agree at all about bad topology. I can get artifacts in V1.x but none in V2.0 development versions. Even with similar biased render algorithms (photon mapping with irradiance caching) - no problems with another engine.

Sometimes artifacts will appear on simple rectangular planes or in corners where simple geometry joins. It is very unlikely we should have a problem with simple geometry. Before I understood why this sort of thing happens, when I had these blotches, I created double layers of geometry to fix what I thought was a problem with 'leaks' - it made no difference. 

Changing surface properties can minimise the problem. You effectively force the engine to calculate the surface in a slightly different manner. The worst problems I have had are with pure white (255,255,255) surfaces. Change the colour to 250,250,250 and apply a texture or a reflectivity of 1% and sometimes they appear to be eliminated. I say 'appear' because of the Russian Roulette sampling method which means that you never get the same blotches twice.

I believe that the problem is with insufficient samples in some areas. As I'm sure you know - these algorithms work by initially dividing scenes into zones of similar illuminance value, which the final gathering pass uses to refine the calculation of the final render solution. You need more samples in corners because you don't get as much light bouncing around there. If the render algorithm doesn't have a facility for increasing sampling in corners, you can end up with 'leaks'. I don't know if the presets have a clever parameter dealing with adaptive sampling. If they do, I sure sid has found it and configured it. Certainly some presets generate fewer or no artifacts.

The simple way to fix the problem is to increase the accuracy by increasing the number of photons and final gathering rays - as some of the presets do. However if you do this, the problems will diminish, but render time increases. This is the problem with biased render algorithms. I'm sure you know this

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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #67 
OK thanks for this jim. I have a feel that forced you to write all this but its really enlightening. 
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #68 
Sometimes I wonder how much to write by means of explanation, because lots of our users are really very experienced with 3d and rendering, and may interpret this as patronising.

For people who don't understand how it works, "knowledge is power"

There are only maybe 6 commonly-used unbiased render algorithms, and they all originate from the same sources - usually scientific papers. The principles are the same, but the implementation will vary.

It is helpful to have used more than 1 render engine, because you can separate your understanding of the principles from the implementation.

For example, if you have most experience with say 3ds Max, you will think that this way of doing things is sort of the way that everything works. When you use more than one application, you can see what the core principles are and how they are implemented differently across different programs.



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solo75080

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Reply with quote  #69 
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Sometimes I wonder how much to write by means of explanation, because lots of our users are really very experienced with 3d and rendering, and may interpret this as patronising.


And that will stop you?

Seriously though, even those who believe they know a lot (pointing at myself) will find your responses enlightening, you have a lot of experience and knowledge to share, sometimes the medium of online narrative can mislead one to assume attitude or arrogance, I'm sure you only intend that half the time.

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bigstick

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Reply with quote  #70 

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nomeradona

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Reply with quote  #71 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstick
I believe that the problem is with insufficient samples in some areas. As I'm sure you know - these algorithms work by initially dividing scenes into zones of similar illuminance value, which the final gathering pass uses to refine the calculation of the final render solution. You need more samples in corners because you don't get as much light bouncing around there.

this is the same too with other engine such as vray and even hypershot. the dark areas or blind areas (and in that case the corners like what big is saying) have less calculated samples that bounced in those areas. and they end up with blotches... i have learned a nifty trick andd this is byputting a suttle (low multiplier) hidden light. they will help to correct those blotches... or if i dont correct them, i just use texture to hide them or sometime if im rushing jsut get rid of them in photoshop...


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solo75080

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Reply with quote  #72 

Same thing happens with Vue when using interior radiosity, the trick there is to attach a 1% luminous value to wall texture in order to prevent blotching.


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nomeradona

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Reply with quote  #73 

there it is solo...therefore with a conclusion.. try perhaps a very suttle omni with very faint multiplier. and by drawing from other rendering engine. blotches could be corrected. of course just a quick recommendation with outeven trying it... 


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michaliszissiou

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Reply with quote  #74 
Any news about podium v2? 
Full alpha transparency
Blur transparency
Some fake emit thing (using a map maybe?)
Translucency
Fake specularity 
Capable to handle heavier models (this goes for SU too)

Just these will turn podium to a superb and still easy to use renderer.
(Translucency and blur reflections are killers for a fast renderer but its optional)
bigstick

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Reply with quote  #75 
Currently awaiting testing, yes, don't understand, yes, no, currently undergoing testing and we hope so!
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